190 Rear Main Seal
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=137773
Printed Date: 28 Apr 2024 at 12:12pm
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Topic: 190 Rear Main Seal
Posted By: farmerson190
Subject: 190 Rear Main Seal
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 5:21pm
|
Father and I recently overhauled our 190 (non-turbo) and installed new seals in the adapter plate as well as the wear sleeve on the flywheel. First 3 hours of run time we had no leak. Upon working the engine for about 15 minutes, had engine oil pouring out the bottom hole in the bellhousing. Shut tractor down. Let sit overnight, refilled with engine oil and drove to a location about 600 feet away so we can work on it. Did not leak a drop of oil. What gives? Seal was installed with the lip towards the engine. O-rings on adapter plate are new, so I'm stumped why it would be fine, then leak heavy, and now not. Haven't put back under load to see if it happens ago tho. Any help would be much appreciative! |
Replies:
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 6:10pm
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Could have been hydraulic oil from the torque tube. The seal around the clutch input shaft could leak. I make a point of replacing it whenever I pull an engine.
------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Posted By: farmerson190
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 6:51pm
| At first we thought that is what it was, hydraulic oil. However, peering through the plate opening didn't show any oil from that area. Also, No engine oil registered on the dipstick when we checked. |
Posted By: acplowboy45
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 5:23am
| I'm having the exact same problem as you. Replaced the o rings in adapter plate and new main seal and while I was discing yesterday I too had an oil leak coming from bottom of bell housing. We looked inside to and there wasn't any sign of oil. But mine still dripping oil out the bottom. What can it be totally puzzled. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 7:27am
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Must be a bad batch of seals. I redid mine when I put the new clutch in over the winter. Now I have a drip drip...Nothing major, but a good drip. Didn't leak before... Should have left it alone ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 8:32am
| Did you use a good film of oil on seal and ware ring before putting it back togather? MACK |
Posted By: ac-mike
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 8:47am
| I had this problem a couple of times and I found that the spring that was part of the seal would be out of place. I found that when that seal was installed with the use of a hammer, using drive tools, the spring would dislodge and the seal would soon leak. I built a tool to draw the seal into place with bolts in the end of crankshaft. I have had no problems with the rear main seal installation since. I am speaking of changing a rear main with plate and crank in place. I am not saying this is your problem, just the experience I have had. |
Posted By: farmerson190
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 7:30pm
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Mack, Yes, seal and wear ring were well oiled. Engine was of course run for 3 hours doing light tasks and didn't have a leak. Driving around, pulling some small trees, etc. Only after putting our rotovator on it and running at pto speed for 20 mins did the leak develop, and the oil just poured out, not a drip drip, it was pouring out. Not while tilling, but right when we went stopped tilling to turn the tractor around. Idled down, still poured out. Shut engine off. Refilled engine oil and hasn't leaked since, but we haven't run it under load again yet to see if it happens again. I was concerned about the seal, when it was installed the plate was not mounted on the engine yet. Maybe the spring partially came off when the flywheel was put on since its a blind install? Or could it be perhaps I didn't get the seal perfectly square on the adapter plate? Just bugs me that so far it is intermittent. I would think it would do that all the time... |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 8:46pm
| I'm with ac-mike.The bigger they are the more likely you bounce the spring off.If it don't heal itself and you go back in...let us know what you find. |
Posted By: chuck (WI)
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 10:25pm
| Started splitting one tonight for a guy that has about 10 hours on a overhaul that said it never leaked till he started working it, will report on what I find. Has steady drip when running. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2017 at 7:15am
| When using a driver to install the seal from the rear, grease the seal pocket so the spring cannot ever become dislocated. When using a non-approved driver, you must get the seal square to the rear engine plate, as it contacts the block in the upper half and can be driven in too far on the bottom half. When installed with plate off the engine, make seal flush with the front face of the plate. Wear sleeve must have sealer between it and the flywheel. Flywheel bolt threads must have some sort of sealer on them and be torqued properly. The seal lip and wear sleeve must be lubed before they are slid together. |
Posted By: acplowboy45
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2017 at 12:01pm
| That's the case I'm having I drove it around barn lot used it here and there. Wasnt until I started discing and using it hard all of a sudden I have oil dripping quite bit out of bell housing. The thing is I have split it 3 times now in less than 2 months. |
Posted By: farmerson190
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 5:25pm
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Well we wound up driving it a little more, and never leaked any more oil. However something happened with out injector shaft umbrella seals, dumped a few gallons of diesel in the oil.. so that is being remedied. We decided to split the tractor since the pump is at the shop (pilot tube was all grooved up inside) and here is what I found: Front side of adapter plate (facing radiator) the two square cut seals were still in place, and nothing appears to be out of place with them. Main oil seal, spring was in the correct position, lip of seal facing towards the engine. However, seal is not square with the adapter plate. Top side is almost flush with the front of the adapter plate, bottom of the seal sticks out further on the front of the plate. When I originally installed the seal, I tried to make it flush with the clutch side, not thinking of that it would touch the block. So, sounds like the crooked seal could cause my leak? DrAllis, you mention sealer between the flywheel and wear sleeve. Any specific kind of sealer? Our repair manual stated not to use anything, but that of course was written many years ago. Also, any kind of grease in particular we should use on that seal to prevent the spring from popping out while installing? Same goes for the sealer on the threads of the flywheel. Other question, while the engine was running during our first 3 hours, it seems like there is a lot of air puffing out of the vent tube. Is this common? Last but not least, our dipstick tube fits very loose in the block. Any way to make it fit better? Thank you all for your help! |
Posted By: ksbowman
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 9:02pm
| Funny you'd bring up the crankcase vent tube. My 170 diesel has white smoke coming out of the vent tube. Put my hand on it and no pressure behind it but, never noticed it much before. Not using any water either. Trying to figure it out. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 12:26am
| I was able to borrow the factory seal installer from local "past" dealer.Thought my manual said use green loctite on wear ring? I had red and blue so went with blue. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 7:32am
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so most likely it was leaking because oil level was way over full diluted with fuel? ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 8:05am
Brilliant!! definately going to do this in the future with any seal ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
DrAllis wrote:Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 8:07am
| Maybe. The seal can't be installed crooked either. Any type of sealer is better than nothing on the wear sleeve......Loctite, hylomar...anything. RTV or pipe thread dope on flywheel bolts.. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 12:09pm
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I have always used
a light film of blue locate on ware ring, and a good amount on bolts. Yes seal has to be straight. Use something to measure with. MACK
|
Posted By: farmerson190
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 4:19pm
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Excellent guys! Thanks again for your help! injectpumpEd: When we had oil leaking out of the bellhousing, we checked the dipstick and it was dry, and it was just engine oil (no diesel smell to it) Pump wasn't leaking at that time, but developed shortly after that. Reinstalling everything this weekend, we'll see how it turns out. We had our local injection service take care of the pump for us so we don't have that issue again.. and the tool to install as well. |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 9:21pm
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had a customer who changed 2 seals, finally found he had changed cranks, and had a 6 bolt crank hub and still use the 4 bolt flywheel.... the result was 2 open holes to the torque housing..
------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: farmerson190
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 9:48pm
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Well new seal and wear ring are installed. Meticulously cleaned the flywheel and sealing surfaces. BIG difference in new sleeve and seal. Our new ones we got right from AGCO. The previous were aftermarket that came with the gasket kit for the engine. AGCO seal is much heavier, tougher, and better tension. Also can't see the spring unless you really bend the lip around. The aftermarket was thinner, less tension, spring very easily could pop out. Aftermarket wear ring was smooth on the inside, the AGCO ring is smooth, but has a hump or ridge on the inside, on the tapered end. This will not allow the ring to be pressed onto the flywheel to be flush with the end of the flywheel.... unless I really press it on. Right now I am on square, but the ring sticks out about 3/32" past the end of the flywheel. Is this right or OK? Comparing to the previous aftermarket rings' wear mark from the oil seal it would put that mark in the dead center of the new sleeve (was not centered before). tbran: That would cause an issue! |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 06 May 2017 at 12:02am
| That ridge stops the ring where it belongs.As an aside,always use OEM main seals.Aftermarket are usually cheapened up versions.Too much trouble to do it twice.They are pricey aren't they? |
Posted By: farmerson190
Date Posted: 06 May 2017 at 12:52am
| From a mechanic background over my life, I've found OEM to always be better, regardless of brand of machine. They were a little pricey, but it is what it is, and worth it! |
Posted By: farmerson190
Date Posted: 10 May 2017 at 9:51pm
| All put back together, and has had about an hour or two runtime hauling some loads with the spreader. So far, no leaks. Haven't been able to load it down yet, as the fields are a tad too wet to till. Thanks again for everyone's help! |