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wi50 
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 Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 10:04am |
 mlpankey wrote:
Marty tell the guy your building the 403 for that I recommend him to purchase your tractor. After all he will have the same amount in it and its your first attempt at a stroke that large.I do want to commend you on accepting the challenge I gave you a year or so ago when I posted the only reason you didn't run stroke was you didn't know how. Seams you are listening and will see the advantage if it upon completion. |
No, the fella has to run low RPM, some MPH pulling, and my old engine isn't going to work for that. I've put togather a few large engines. So, no it is not my first attempt at any kind of large stroke engine you nit wit. I just never had any use for one myself, no real desire to do any of that type of pulling.
The cost of that large engine really is not that bad, I'll lay it out for those interested in nice round numbers.
$150 for me to make the liners from good take out diesel liners.
$500 by the time the block gets bored, liners installed and bored, honed and decked
$250 in grinding a cam, lifters, shipping etc.
$750 to weld and grind the stroker crank.
$300 worth of rods, heat treating and machine work to them
$200 to balance the assembly.
$500 for pistons and rings
$300 worth of berrings, gaskets, msc parts, block sealer, etc
So it's about a $3000 short block assembly out of pocket minus labor, but if a guy gets to work, the time to do it all isn't that bad. We can spend a lot more, buying different parts, or depending on what a fella has or gets his hands on reasonable or wants to buy custom.
Now the cylinder head, manifold, carb, and the work in them, rocker arms and ignition can cost as much or more as the parts in the rest of the engine.
The reality of it is fella's is that it's not that hard to build a large stroker engine. What is so different than any other engine? There is additional work in cutting clearance for things, but it's a simple matter of marking out where things are hitting or going to hit, putting the block in the mill and cutting away. Check, mark, cut more and grind when done. Degreeing a cam is the same practice weather the engine is going to run 2100 RPM or 6000 RPM, just different settings. Though I've got a lot less parts to bolt togather on that large displacement engine than I do in my old engine.
If I use a custom connecting rod like in Rod B's engine then clearance is easier. But getting 5.75 stroke and clearance with a Farmall H type rod is easy, but getting much past that out to 6" then I have to play a few tricks and countersink the rod bolts. By the time I cut rods and clearnace a block the extra, one may as well buy custom connecting rods from Murphy or G-Tool.
I realize that it is magic for a guy like pankey, but the reality of it is that it's just a few extra hours machining on rods, block, sleves, etc. I suppose the magic comes in in makeing a reliable package. It's more fun to go pull than it is to sit at home on your computer.
Now an engine like in the purpose of this thread where I'm building a high RPM engine is a lot more work. Look at all the work it takes to tie a bottom end togather to take the stress. How much work would one care to guess has to go into a cylinder head and manifold package to be able to fill a cylinder at high speed? How many hundred hours does one spend messing around with all those type of parts? I don't know but the reward in some things is the doing of it.
I was down at G-Tool last week. Neat stuff and Ryan is a good guy.
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Rod B
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Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 9:57pm |
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I know a lot of stupid people who can build an engine. Pankey is one of them, but it takes intelligence to build a good engine that performs well and lasts. That is why a guy like Marty or Barney can build great engines and pank has nothing to show or pull. He's all talk. Ask anyone in his area that knows him.
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acwdwcman
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Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 8:38pm |
i dont like to get in this drama crap but panky why dont you just quit being jealous. n shut your mouth and go build something your way (the non- running way) instead of telling others how to make a pos engine.
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wd with a freeman model 90 trip loader, wd45, 38 unstylled wc, b 10 garden tractor and 2-14 ac trip plow. grandpa has a 56 wd45. wd. allis chalmers snap coupler blade and 3 bottom snap coupler plow
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Rod B
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Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 7:29pm |
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Wi built my engine years ago pank and I know of others he has done. Mine is 4.65 bore and 6.25 stroke. Don't give us any of your drama.
I am building my new engine and had wi do the head. G-Tool is makeing the crank to overcome the problems associated with useing a standard breathing and fireing order.
Pank, you are full of BS and don't even pull. You haven't built anything that works. Ol BT told me that himself
Edited by Rod B - 23 Feb 2012 at 8:21am
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mlpankey
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Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 6:23pm |
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Marty tell the guy your building the 403 for that I recommend him to purchase your tractor. After all he will have the same amount in it and its your first attempt at a stroke that large.I do want to commend you on accepting the challenge I gave you a year or so ago when I posted the only reason you didn't run stroke was you didn't know how. Seams you are listening and will see the advantage if it upon completion.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 5:21pm |
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Kb 4.185 pistons now I know he has a been reading my old posts. Enjoy someone carrying on my efforts. A 403 at 14.1.1 compression was a 1998 natpa champ as well
Edited by mlpankey - 15 Feb 2012 at 5:44pm
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wi50
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Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 11:15am |
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I run an almost identical setup but I cut my pistons to quench and 11.25 compression. I trimmed the tops just a bit for a .010 popup above the liner and took the rest out of the bowls and cut valve relief areas.
I did a pretty good head, manifold, cam and worked over a Minne Mo carb for the engine.
Works great but we need to rember we have old cast pistons.
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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mattb
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Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 10:08am |
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Im getting ready to put together an engine with MW 4.125 pistons with d17 rods and 226 crank. I have them set at 11.5 to 1 and gonna run E85 u think thats too high of compression?
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mark vaughn
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Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 8:02pm |
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Good looking stuff man. I love that classic 78 Snapon tool box. Thats when i finished high school in 1978. Show more when you get time. THANKS MARK.
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wi50
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Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 7:42pm |
few guys wanted to see so   me more pics so here's some of what is happening on some Allis engine projects
One pic of the light super chassis, some of some manifolds and a clutch for different alky tractor projects I'm messing with. I've got a bunch of Allis engines in various builds for fella's, one is a fairley large engine at 4.625X6 and the pic on the WD-45 block is a real cheap little engine useing a Keith Black 4.185 piston, bored 4.125 overbore liners, an IH 308 truck engine rod and an offset ground crank to 4.75 stroke. Another one in the line is a 4.28 bore setup with welded Buda rods. Some guys have thousands to spend, and others want to get all they can for a thousand bucks to run in the stock class.
I do a lot of head and manifold work for others weather it's for a NTPA super or a local stock puller, or some NATPA rigs, I don't really say much about some of what gets done and I don't show much for pics, but I'll ask a few of the guys if it's OK and maybe post some pics of the parts sometime. I don't mind shareing my own, but not others.
Edited by wi50 - 14 Feb 2012 at 7:57pm
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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mlpankey
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 7:49pm |
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Most the division 3 and 4 competitive tractors are 12.1 brad peters case. Is one it got beat by a big inch allis wd from newyork with a little more cr. High comp. Does add stress and can reduce life expectancy if not routinely checked.
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wi50
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 7:40pm |
some fool on the internet will try to talk you into 14 to 1 or something. But assumeing you are working on a low speed pulling engine in one of these old gas tractors I'd stay somewhere in the 10 to 11.5 to 1 range. If it's going to get wound up where it doesn't have much time to take a breath than one can go up to 12.5 or 13 to 1.
But it depends some on the combustion chamber and or piston design as well as the size of the engine. If you have a verry strong engine with good parts and the ability to quench it than one can run a little higher ratio.
I got one for low speed (4mph governed RPM) pulling at 11.25 to 1 and it's just a little to much, I should knock it back around 10 or 10.5. Some I'm currently working on one is targeted to be 10.5 for a NATPA div 3 and 4 type tractor, another dedicated div 4 one is at 12 to 1 but verry fussy. My high speed engine in the old WC is right around 12 to 1 but the cam really bleeds off pressure at low speed, that engine isn't set up to do much work below 3000 RPM.
I'd rather have an engine that has more breathing potential than useing real high compression, that will give you a much more reliable package and perform better though the operating range. Reliability and simplicity is worth way more than a fella thinks. I've seen some dang tough engines that wouldn't blow verry hard on a pressure gauge.
Edited by wi50 - 07 Feb 2012 at 7:45pm
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 7:00pm |
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That's kind of an open ended question. It depends on what class you are running, what fuel you are burning, what engine you are running and a host of other things like are you turbocharged, is the engine modified, etc. But have no fear because Plankey or Panky or whatever his name is can tell you exactly to the 1/1000 of a percent of what you need.
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patrickmull
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 6:06pm |
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what is everyone's opinion of what a good compression ratio would be to run for a pulling tractor
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 5:25pm |
Steve you named some heavy hitters there. I honestly don't know if Wi50 is in that class or not (I don't know that much) but his work sure looks innovative to me. Everything I've ever heard Plankey say just sounded like so much BS. Speaking of legends of motorsports, ever hear of a guy name Garley Daniels? His shop is about 20 miles from me. I don't know him personally but know several guys that are buddies with him. He started off working as a school bus mechanic, working on 292 Chevy inline 6's. Last I knew he was building experimental V6 engines for GM's drag racing program. He's self taught all the way through.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 5:05pm |
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Your right I did lie. It wasn't a couple of years ago .It was 2008 when a dairyman from Wisconsin shows me roller lifters a lathe turned billet camshaft and a filled head that he said he would get 350 cfms out of combo. I questioned then the cross sectional area. He used words like hard headed envious and jealous and said our communications were over. Any similarities. Or just coincidence
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wi50
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 8:08am |
Well I see someone's concerened about my lifter setup and lying to us again. I just made the setup a couple weeks agoe and I have not been posting for 2 years.
Someone asked why a Case engine. Why not, it's different. It's been ran the past couple years in an ag chassis. I'm working on a different set of cylinder heads for it and a new intake manifold. Probably pull the pistons out and cut a bit more out of the bowls to drop the compression a little more also depending on how the heads flow when done. We have plans to and have been accumulating parts for a 3 turbo IH based engine but it doesn't happen overnight.
I'll take a few pictures of some of the things and post up later. But here's a few I took yesterday, one of my old WC when we were moveing some equipment around a shed and one shop pic. I'll take a few more later on and add when I get some time.   |
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Rod B
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Posted: 05 Feb 2012 at 12:26pm |
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Nothing added by pankey other than a little minded person trying to belittle someone. It screams jealousy and ignorance.
If it is a tabled project with excuse of insufficent time as pankey claims than what about the inabilities of his own failed projects and claims.
As others have said, give it a rest pankey. It is easy to see you're so full of BS and jealousy in what you post.
Keep up the good work Wi. We appreciate the pictures and information you are willing to share. Time has shown us who knows what and who posts what they read in this months issue of a magazine.
Edited by Rod B - 05 Feb 2012 at 12:30pm
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 1:32pm |
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Ok here's some knowledge. Boring bars either come with three or four centering feet depending on wich one you purchase and they can and have moved the bore off the original center.did bit of knowledge for the none boring bar owners / machinists
Edited by mlpankey - 03 Feb 2012 at 1:33pm
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427435
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 12:42pm |
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I expect this kind of stuff on the Political forum, but Panky give it a rest!! Wi50 is providing useful and interesting info----------you're adding nothing to this thread.
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Mark
B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel,
GTH-L Simplicity
Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 12:26pm |
Rod B wrote:
Do not lie to us pank. You get caught and backpedal. Now tell me where you seen WI50's lifter setup over 2 years agoe? Please tell us. He has not been posting that long.
I doubt that you have any PM laughing at him either. |
ask him if Larry is his step dad or a family friend.
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Rod B
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 12:07pm |
Do not lie to us pank. You get caught and backpedal. Now tell me where you seen WI50's lifter setup over 2 years agoe? Please tell us. He has not been posting that long.
I doubt that you have any PM laughing at him either.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 10:11am |
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Since your keeping g score of creditability would you like to see the private messages laughing at you. Don't worry guys you sent them private they will remain private..the junk hub was externally balance along with a flywheel for a specific crankshaft. One of those things you said couldn't be done. Remember.or should we bring back the post where you said it. If my stuff stayed piled back in the barn or always on the work shop table like the picture of the lifters being the fist time I ever seen those same two lifters on notebook paper was at least two years ago.my stuff would last just as yours does.tabled project with a excuse of insufficient time
Edited by mlpankey - 03 Feb 2012 at 10:16am
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 9:43am |
Wi50, I've been reading this thread since it started, and I must say, as an old Drag Racer from back in the late 60's-early 70's, I've seen engine technology change tremendously as time progressed. I was one of those guys that came out of the first Aluminum rod era wondering how the heck is that thing connected to a piston gonna last in a 8,000 rpm engine? LOL! As most of us know, 8,000 rpm is a normal running range for most racing engines today so I'm dating myself here. I am enjoying this thread tho, I can tell ya that! My hat is off to gentleman like yourself that have the talent to actually "re-create" an engine from what it was origianally. You are sir, a very, very talanted man as the other's have said! I put you in the Bill Jenkin's, Smokey Yunik, Keith Black catagory. Not afraid to experiment, and re-create an engine, in a quest to make big performance gains. What impresses me the most is not only do you re-desiign, & re-engineer an engine, but you spend the time amount of time to make sure your "re-creation" will be reliable and also serviceable. Just keep those pics coming, cause' like the others here, I am enjoying the ride as I read. Keep us in the loop when you get back to this endevor. That engine is a work of art, and I hope it performs and meets to your expectations....
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427435
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 11:26pm |
wi50 wrote:
Around here the 800 moline is just fine. The "farm stock" classes have turned into 4 mph for the lighter tractors and 6 or 8 mph for the heavier tractors. Then there's the "hobby stock" or some other name depending on the pull and who puts it on, but the rules are to be naturally aspirated, safety equipment, etc....... just hope you brung enough under the hood. The heavier classes are turbocharged and limeted to a certain size, usually 3X4 charger but some places unlimeted. Then we have the "open class", multi charger, or single, no real limets.
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How much power is needed to be competitive in a class around 9000 lbs with 1 turbo? Would 600-800 be enough??
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Mark
B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel,
GTH-L Simplicity
Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not.
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Jordan(OH)
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 11:18pm |
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Just curious, what made you go with the CASE 504? Not saying its right or wrong cause I have no idea, just wondering.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 10:43pm |
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wi50,I just appreciate how you aren't derailed by conventional thinking. It's obvious that the word "can't" isn't in your lexicon and while this is an orange forum,most I think are jazzed by hi-perf no matter the original heritage.
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mark vaughn
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 9:51pm |
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wi50 Keep pictures coming. Im diggin this ALLIS high performance stuff. I sure want to see some cylinder head and intake pictures when ever you get to that point. Thanks Mark
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Ryan Renko
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 9:51pm |
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I admire your work wi50!!! I can build stuff out of wood everyday, but building things out of metal is another story!!! Great work. I enjoy having a adult beverage and checking out this forum but I hope we can all just get along as Rodney King said!!! I dont know enough about bearing tolerances or rods to even get in this talk!! Ryan
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wi50
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 9:37pm |
Urr a funny guy Rod
There's a few projects in the works, weather it's mine or someone elses.... I don't post pictures or mention much of anyone elses.
Steve,
sure I can put up a few pictures of the super, I'll take a few shortly of some of the things I've got laying around the shop for it and the chassis is at a friends shop. There's 3 of us togather on it. Nothing is to top secrete. Just useing a bunch of junk that was laying around, we bought a good component chassis and trying to shoehorn a modified 504 Case into a frame that's to narrow for the block. I'm converting a set of alumnium Indy Cyl Heads to alky for it and makeing new manifolds. Makeing brackets and an adapter plate to hold a SFI clutch can on a narrowed up Case block right now. We plan to build a 3 turbo IH engine shortly but want to run a year or two with the existing engine.
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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