B Valve Train Issue

Pulled the valve cover on my B today and found this. I am not a mechanical genius but I know this is not good. At least 3 other tappets are impacting the valve spring top caps. My question is should I (can I) pull the rocker arm assembly and take my die grinder to the tappets without ruining them? It appears they need less than 1/16" to clear.

I also got the old tractor to start and run today after going back through the old carb again. The run time was longer, maybe 2-3 minutes, but it did the exact same thing as last time. It ran smooth and rattle/smoke free and then just shut off like the ignition had been cut, but I am still getting sparks on the plugs. I fear the old carb has major issues that are invisible. All the passages are open, the float neither floods nor starves. I have a clear hose attached to the the inlet and when the engine was running the gas level slowly dropped. So, I broke down and bought a brand new carb, which was NOT cheap.


Edited by theropod - 21 Nov 2017 at 7:38pm

From your picture it looks like the valve adjusters are broken off. Can  you post a picture showing the full length of the valve train.

Below is a model B cylinder head.

theropod wrote: I will get a picture of the adjusters tomorrow, but they are intact. Checked each one to make sure that wasn’t the issue. They seem to have the proper clearance too.

Picture would be good,

On some small engines valve adjustment is accomplished by removing material from the valve stem. But your B model cylinder head should have adjusters as shown in the picture I uploaded.

rustydollar wrote: theropod wrote: I will get a picture of the adjusters tomorrow, but they are intact. Checked each one to make sure that wasn’t the issue. They seem to have the proper clearance too. Picture would be good, On some small engines valve adjustment is accomplished by removing material from the valve stem. But your B model cylinder head should have adjusters as shown in the picture I uploaded.

rustydollar wrote: From your picture it looks like the valve adjusters are broken off. Can  you post a picture showing the full length of the valve train...

His pic is of the valve end, not the adjuster end...so no adjusters.

That explanation about the valves seat re-cutting makes sense. If the rockers and shaft are in good condition, I don't see why a little grinding wouldn't solve this. Also, the rockers on my B aren't perfectly centered over the valve stems and it runs fine.

Did your new carb solve the problem? Mine would have to disintegrate before I spent that much money on a new one.

Edited by HoughMade - 21 Nov 2017 at 8:13pm

HoughMade wrote: rustydollar wrote: From your picture it looks like the valve adjusters are broken off. Can  you post a picture showing the full length of the valve train... His pic is of the valve end, not the adjuster end...so no adjusters. That explanation about the valves seat re-cutting makes sense. If the rockers and shaft are in good condition, I don't see why a little grinding wouldn't solve this. Also, the rockers on my B aren't perfectly centered over the valve stems and it runs fine. Did your new carb solve the problem? Mine would have to disintegrate before I spent that much money on a new one.

Thanks for clearing that up, i don't think the shop should have removed material form the button which almost looks like it could be replaceable. Find an old Chevy stove bolt engine to rob the buttons from the rockers.

I've ground a few valve seats and resurfaced valves, if the valve head after grinding sunk into the head that deep the shop should have replaced the valves.

Next time that head goes to the shop for a regrind have them install stellite seats along with new valves and guides.

I've used the thin wall bronze guides, the kit comes with a drill reamer combo, a driver to install the guide and a knurling tool to seat the guide and a cut off tool to trim the top of the guide off. The optional kit had a cutter to size the outside diameter of the guide to accept teflon seals.

The thin wall bronze guides are easy to install, the kits is manufacture by K-Line. The kit would be a good club purchase.

http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/valve-guide-liners-installation-kits.html








Edited by rustydollar - 21 Nov 2017 at 10:47pm

HoughMade wrote: rustydollar wrote: From your picture it looks like the valve adjusters are broken off. Can  you post a picture showing the full length of the valve train... His pic is of the valve end, not the adjuster end...so no adjusters. That explanation about the valves seat re-cutting makes sense. If the rockers and shaft are in good condition, I don't see why a little grinding wouldn't solve this. Also, the rockers on my B aren't perfectly centered over the valve stems and it runs fine. Did your new carb solve the problem? Mine would have to disintegrate before I spent that much money on a new one.

I have a tool shop so made the shims out of flat stock and ground on the surface grinder. I am sure you can find flat washers the same thickness that could be slipped under the stands with out removing the total assembly. The shims would be faster and easier than grinding. Grinding would do it.
A lot of the stands I have removed were broken. Stands for the B thru CA are all the same height. I have stands from other make engines that look almost the same with the same shaft that are taller and shorter. That is another possible cause if there was a broken stand and all were replaced with slightly shorter ones. Sinking the valves that deep is hard for me seeing being done. Stranger things have been done though.    

Edited by Dick L - 22 Nov 2017 at 8:45am

The washers or shims like Dick L said would be best route to go-with the arm hitting like that you can cause a keeper to come out , then the valve will be on top of piston. Not good. Leon

littlemarv wrote: They are all offset. I only mentioned it because if they had full rocker to stem contact, it would wear better.

Thanks for the info.  Next time I have occasion to dig into the valve train, I may have to do that.

Sigh,

Well laddies and germs I dug into things, and what I found was not good. Aside from the issues with the rockers impacting the valve spring caps I found a bent push rod. The intake on number three has a distinct bend, and that alerts me to a stuck, or sticking, valve. I don't think my father-in-law would have put it back together like this. I am amazed it ran at all. Maybe I can straighten it out with gentle vice clamping. I wish it hadn't ever started! Read on.



On top of the bent push rod bad news I drained the old oil and was shocked to find that clear water ran out for 5 or 6 seconds before the tar-like glop that passed for oil came out. There was well over a quart of water in the crankcase. There hasn't been any coolant fluid of any kind in it for many many years as a bad water pump prohibited that. I think this was years and years of condensation adding up. I feel like such an idiot for even attempting to make it run with that in the crankcase. I should have drained the old oil and WATER before even attempting to get it to start and run. I hope I have not scored the lower end, but knowing my luck I have.

I may be looking at a fresh rebuild now. I am amazed that the engine hasn't seized with that water in there. I have poured 1.5 gallons of diesel in it and cranked it over under I am wore out. I will let that sit in there for a couple days and drain it out and see what it looks like. I may put my small Weber Kettle BBQ under the oil pan and get the block nice and hot and give it another cranking session before draining the diesel. I am so disgusted with myself right now.

Below is a wide angle shot of the entire rocker assembly. A little crud but no obvious issues aside from the rockers banging into the valve spring caps and the bent push rod. I am not going to set in grinding on those rockers, and will look into shims to raise the rocker assembly. I may pull the oil pan and take a look at the lower end before going much further with anything. I know that is a serious chore, but I am determined to make this old B right again. I just hadn't planned on these sorts of issues, as I was under the impression that the engine was tight.

HoughMade wrote: The truth of the matter is, as water floats on oil, and the oil pickup is at the bottom of the sump, you may not have circulated much, if any water.  If it wasn't seized...which is wasn't, then maybe there's no harm.  In fact, I'd think that it is less likely to be damaged from what you did than not.  Any issue you find is likely preexisting. As for the water, it may be condensation, but it may do well to get the cooling system water tight, fill it and pressurize it and inspect with the oil pan off to see if there is any seepage. By way of encouragement, I just got a B that was my Dad's running and running well after sitting for several years.  A cylinder had rusted due to sitting in a humid barn basement with the exhaust valve open on that cylinder.  I did not have to do a complete rebuild.  These things can be challenging, but if you are committed, you can get good results.

Are you sure about the water floating on oil? I have never known that to be the case. The water was on the bottom as it came out well before any oil upon draining. At any rate the water wasn't mixed with the resulting grey froth typical of a blown head gasket.

There hasn't been any coolant liquid of any kind in it for years and years. I am almost positive this is entirely a condensation issue.

Oh, I'm a stubborn type and even if I need to rebuild the engine I will. In for a penny and all that. Yes, the oil pan is probably going to come off anyway. I don't have the radiator mounted right now, or even a belt to the water pump. I had hoped to get it to start and run before attacking that set of issues.

Looking at your adjustors I am sure you need to shim the stands. The adjusters are all the way up. When everything is in spec they should be about half way on the threads. A compression check will tell you if you have a valve sticking open and with the assembly off you can push down on each valve to see if they are sticking closed. Did you by any chance check the gap between the rocker arm pad and the valve stem? You can straighten push rods. Roll it on a flat board and tap the high side until you do not have a gap in the center when rolling it.

theropod -