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Dumb Engine Size Questions

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CrestonM View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Nov 2016 at 11:51pm
I hear these terms used all the time. I know what 301's, 426's, 516's, etc. are, but when people say things like 670T, 670I, 649T, Mark II 2900, 3500, and 25000, etc. 
Some of those are the same engines, right? Just different terms? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DanD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 12:09am
They changed to metric designation so the 301 (2800) became a 649...6 cylinder 4.9 liter. T indicated turbocharged, I intercooled.   So for example you had a 433T 433I 649 649T 649I 670T 670I etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveC(NS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 5:42am
Originally posted by DanD DanD wrote:

They changed to metric designation .

Do you mean the U.S. of A. changed something to metric  designation?
Wow! wonders never cease. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 6:26am
But we wisely kept the english system for most everything else...  Heritage, not hate...

Back in college, I had to convert from inch to metric, and back, so many times, I was sick of it.  Hadda prof ask me to convert a pint to metric, so's I said, without missing a beat 473 ml, he asked me to do the math, or show how I arrived at that figure.  So I calmly pulled out an empty bud tall boy, and pointed it out on the label...  He never asked me again...Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 6:47am
Originally posted by SteveC(NS) SteveC(NS) wrote:

Originally posted by DanD DanD wrote:

They changed to metric designation .

Do you mean the U.S. of A. changed something to metric  designation?
Wow! wonders never cease. LOL

Changed about the same time AC went belly up BTW,when you're the #1 economy in the
World you get to have a lot of things your way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 6:51am
Originally posted by Gary Burnett Gary Burnett wrote:

Changed about the same time AC went belly up BTW,when you're the #1 economy in the
World you get to have a lot of things your way.

But if you sit on your laurels the rest of the world will pass you by.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 6:54am
Originally posted by DougS DougS wrote:

Originally posted by Gary Burnett Gary Burnett wrote:

Changed about the same time AC went belly up BTW,when you're the #1 economy in the
World you get to have a lot of things your way.

But if you sit on your laurels the rest of the world will pass you by.


True and we've done it for awhile but that's about to change,fortunately for us most of the rest of the World has done worse than we have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 6:55am
part of the 'world economy'... 'free trade' etc. is the 'need ' to go metric..
2 ways, soft and hard...

soft, only the numbers on paper are Metric

hard, the 'stuff' really IS Metric

Ford up here found a HUGE problem when going 'hard' as wheel nuts lookd a lot alike and bins full of 1/2-fine got impacted onto Metric studs ! NOT one of their finer days......

All 'world class' vehicles made since early 80s are METRIC...

Jay

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 7:26am
So the US built the largest economy ever using fractions.  When the rest of the world figured a way called metric, so they could try to understand  how to keep up, but still couldn't, that we need to dumb down to make things more even.  How has that been working out for our economy?  Looks to me like the dumbing down has been working well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LeonR2013 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 7:38am
You tell me where the improvement is when changing to metric? Does the nut clamp better,hold better,last longer,cost effective,(heaven forbid)easier to remember, and have you seen the size of a mechanics tool box these days? Maybe we sent a man to the moon using the metric system, but how the heck did a man walking on the moon help me and my family or your family in a personal way? Sure it's interesting to learn about the moon and planets and we sure need them in place for everything to work right, but at such an ungodly cost to the taxpayer, or that benefits us as individuals? I'm not aiming these thoughts at any of you, so please don't be insulted. I have no idea how I got from metric wrenches to walking on the moon and everything in between. Guess I'm getting older and dumber. Waiting on the wiser part and it hasn't shown up yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JW in MO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 7:58am
I'm just a dumb old farm kid who works in an industry where everything has to be very precise. What confounds me is I deal with cabinets that sometimes can't vary more than 1.5 degrees either way but everything is in celsius, or centigrade as I learned in school. Fahrenheit is a much finer and more accurate measuring system but totally ignored in the medical field. I just play the game by the rules provided. (something I wish I'd learned to do in college)
Maximum use of available resources!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 8:27am
There is ZERO technical reason to ever go 'Metric'....
and even when 'they' do, like us Canucks north of the 49th, 'they' STILL rely on IMPERIAL measurements for IMPORTANT issues !

We've been metric since the first Trudeau( mid 70s???)..
YET

EVERYTIME 'they' want us to help 'them' find a bad guy, he's reported as being...

6 FOOT two, 220 POUNDS.......

IF we're supposed to be Metric, what's with the feet, inches and pounds ???

Idiots.....

Now 'supposedly' we're selling to the 'world' market and they are mostly metric BUT , build a better ,cheaper mousetrap and they WILL buy it, be it in inches or sillymeters.....

The real problem is WE can't build ANYTHING 'they' want...better,cheaper than they already can...

One interesting tidbit is that BILLIONS of itty,bitty integrated circuits are STILL manufactured on 1/10th INCH spacing for the pins,made in them 'metric' countries !

Jay


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dans 7080 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 9:31am
Ever notice tire sizes? 285-75 r16 why is the tire in metric but the rim is always standard?
When someone tells you Nothings Impossible, Tell them to slam a revolving door
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alberta Phil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 9:46am
Even tho the country went metric years ago, the country roads are still 1 mile apart!  Or is that 1.6 Km?  And we still measure our harvest in bushels per acre.


Wait a minute----wasn't this post about engine sizes??  LOL


Edited by Alberta Phil - 24 Nov 2016 at 9:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 10:19am
Somewhere along that history Allis Chalmers changed to Deutz Allis and the Deutz company that bought the remains of Alllis was European and by that time I think European standards insisted on metric measurements and metric standard hardware for imported equipment. Unfortunately there are multiple metric standards around the world for hardware and they don't always agree on standard sizes and thread pitches.

Imperial as used in the UK is different than inches used in the USA. For bolts and nuts generally the same diameters but different thread pitches. 8mm looks the same diameter as 5/16" to the eye and the micrometer (within 0.0025") but the threads won't mate. 11mm and 7/16 are very close and 19mm and 3/4" are only .0.002" apart. 5/8" and 16mm are .005" apart. Most other common metric dimensions aren't so close.

As I recall, the engine in my '73 Pinto wagon was metric but everything else was fractional hardware.

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 10:22am
I KNOW here in Ontario when we 'went to the dark size'...... a LOT of farmers got done in by the official govenment 'conversion' charts as to what the M-stuff was. fert rates, etc. were all WRONG.....Now the 'old guys' who kept doing what thay'd done for 30-40-50 years were fine...but the 'city slickerwannabe farmers', well, they didn't fare so well...

as for engines... how are CARBS rated these days? CFM or ?????

Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 10:26am
They use carbs in anything other than small engines nowadays?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 6:51am
Originally posted by DiyDave DiyDave wrote:

But we wisely kept the english system for most everything else...  Heritage, not hate...

Back in college, I had to convert from inch to metric, and back, so many times, I was sick of it.  Hadda prof ask me to convert a pint to metric, so's I said, without missing a beat 473 ml, he asked me to do the math, or show how I arrived at that figure.  So I calmly pulled out an empty bud tall boy, and pointed it out on the label...  He never asked me again...Wink

HAHAHAHAHA! Oh man! I can relate to that one brother! On so many levels!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 6:55am
Originally posted by JW in MO JW in MO wrote:

I'm just a dumb old farm kid who works in an industry where everything has to be very precise. What confounds me is I deal with cabinets that sometimes can't vary more than 1.5 degrees either way but everything is in celsius, or centigrade as I learned in school. Fahrenheit is a much finer and more accurate measuring system but totally ignored in the medical field. I just play the game by the rules provided. (something I wish I'd learned to do in college)


I understand your rant. But just for fun, can you please tell me how Fahrenheit is "more accurate"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 6:57am
Originally posted by Dans 7080 Dans 7080 wrote:

Ever notice tire sizes? 285-75 r16 why is the tire in metric but the rim is always standard?


Because 285-75 R406.4 would look funny?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 7:00am
Anyone know the first US President to consider switching to the metric system, but after consideration considered it to be too expensive?



....





....


Thomas Jefferson! True.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 9:25am
In Centigrade there are 100 degrees between ice and steam from distilled water at sea level. In Fahrenheit there are 180 degrees for that range. So the tehmperature change for one degree is smaller in Fahrenheit.

Both schemes were devised based on physical constants. Fahrenheit picked 0 as the coldest temperature he could get ice with salt, and 100 as normal human body temperature. He wasn't perfect as today we figure 98.6 F as normal body temperature.

Celsius picked the freezing temperature of pure water as zero and the boiling point at sea level pressure as 100. And its now known that freezing of water is 32F and boiling is 212F. The only troubles with these as calibration points is that they are affected by the purity of the water and boiling by the atmospheric pressure so even more by altitude.

There are other standards for temperature. At least Reaumur, Kelvin, and Rankine.

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Gerald J. Gerald J. wrote:

In Centigrade there are 100 degrees between ice and steam from distilled water at sea level. In Fahrenheit there are 180 degrees for that range. So the tehmperature change for one degree is smaller in Fahrenheit.

Both schemes were devised based on physical constants. Fahrenheit picked 0 as the coldest temperature he could get ice with salt, and 100 as normal human body temperature. He wasn't perfect as today we figure 98.6 F as normal body temperature.

Celsius picked the freezing temperature of pure water as zero and the boiling point at sea level pressure as 100. And its now known that freezing of water is 32F and boiling is 212F. The only troubles with these as calibration points is that they are affected by the purity of the water and boiling by the atmospheric pressure so even more by altitude.

There are other standards for temperature. At least Reaumur, Kelvin, and Rankine.

Gerald J.




Yep.

All of which has precisely nothing to do with "accuracy".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 12:55pm
that was a good question i was wondering about the numbers also
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by DanD DanD wrote:

They changed to metric designation so the 301 (2800) became a 649...6 cylinder 4.9 liter. T indicated turbocharged, I intercooled.   So for example you had a 433T 433I 649 649T 649I 670T 670I etc.

So why is a 301 also a 2800? Is 301 the cubic inches and 2800 just a model name? 
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Originally posted by Dans 7080 Dans 7080 wrote:

Ever notice tire sizes? 285-75 r16 why is the tire in metric but the rim is always standard?
..............DONT give them any ideas..........lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyhighballoon(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by CrestonM CrestonM wrote:

Originally posted by DanD DanD wrote:

They changed to metric designation so the 301 (2800) became a 649...6 cylinder 4.9 liter. T indicated turbocharged, I intercooled.   So for example you had a 433T 433I 649 649T 649I 670T 670I etc.

So why is a 301 also a 2800? Is 301 the cubic inches and 2800 just a model name? 


Yes, 2800 was the model name for the 301 naturally aspirated diesel.  2900 for turbo.  3400 for 426 naturally aspirated, 3500 for 426 turbo and so on.  You also had the 265 cu 6 cylinder gas model named G2500 and the 301 gas was G2800.  Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 3:08pm
Thanks, Mike! Now maybe I'll actually understand what guys are talking about when they say those --00 numbers, instead of just nodding and saying "Mmm hmm...yeah". LOL
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The 2000 series......2200 was a 4 cylinder gasser......2400 was the diesel version?........2500 was a 6 cylinder gasser.....2800 was gas or diesel.......2900 was turbo diesel........2950 was turbo intercooled diesel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 5:27pm
Some were in 70's there was a big push to make the U S metric,probably Carters doings. Out here with all the progressives it even went so far as distance on Highway signs was in both systems. I cannot remember if any are that way anymore or not.

I think this caused A C to convert,and am guessing this could of coincided with the introduction of L and M combines.  I operated a 75 MH combine in 79 and believe they were already using the D2900 as the engine model.I have a parts book for the 78 model MH2 combine and it says D2900, so this is long before the Deutz name was connected to Allies .  Now if I can keep this all strait as I don't deal in any of the older AC engines.


I have used the metric enough to see the advantage of everything being 1/10 or 1/100 instead of the odd ball fractions we get in are current system. BUT THIS OLD DOG HATES CHANGES so don't pitch me to the wolfs for saying that. I also get put out at Detroit that cannot make up its mind which fasteners it is going to us. Maybe Snapon tools pays them off as everybody needs a complete set of both tool sets. All the way back in the 70's and still building 50/50 models.  
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