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Gleaner M combine 301 engine |
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 4:11pm |
Looking for help. Had to pull the fuel pump off my combine to have it rebuilt. Not knowing any better, i pulled it without putting the pump in time. Now i need to. Get it in time. Would i be right to put the pump in time with the lines lined up and the engine fly wheel at TDC? Any help greatly appreciated
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19675 |
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If it is truly a model "M", you have a pump driveshaft sticking out from the engine, right?? There are two styles of driveshafts. One is a flat tang drive (it has a "dot" on it) and the other is a spline drive (it has an internal notch tang). Either way, if the pump is rotated to the correct shaft orientation, bolt it back on the engine and place the mounting nuts/washers right back where they were and you are good to go.
And no, placing the engine at TDC and lining up the pump marks won't work, as the engine might be on #1 or #6 and it isn't TDC, it is a number 16 to 24 degrees before TDC depending on the specific engine and injection pump.
Edited by DrAllis - 09 Dec 2018 at 4:24pm |
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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Dr. Allis,
It is a spline shaft with a small cut out that locks into a small slot inside the pump. The shaft does go through the engine wall like you described. The pump is a roosa master and the engine is a Mark I i believe. Its a Gleaner M 1978. I didnt remove the pump correctly and now I am having timing issues. I had the pump lines lined up and the engine at TDC and hot it started, but it smoked like crazy. Do you think its 16 or 24 BTDC? I see on the fly wheel there is numerous slash marks next to the TDC mark. Are those used to get it BTDC? I am very new at all this. But Im learning a lot as I go. Thanks. Greg |
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19675 |
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1976 was the last year for a model "M" combine. If you got the injection pump back on the engine, you must have the shaft engaged correctly as per the "locating tang" on the end of the shaft. So, with that in mind, you should be able to rotate the pump back and forth on the mounting slots and get it timed where it needs to be. I'd have to look up the timing spec number, but I'm thinking 18 degrees BTDC but don't trust me on that. Like I said in my earlier post, if you put the pump exactly where it was on the slotted mounting holes it has to be right. Don't you have any paint marks? or flat washer marks to go by ???
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Carl(NWWI)
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: NW WI Points: 948 |
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More then likely you will have to time the front damper pulley to the correct degrees mark against the pointer on thr front cover. Then remove the small window on the side of the pump, then loosen the 2 mounting screws for the pump and line up the internal marks on the pump by rotating it. If the one mark isn't visable. Turn engine 1 full revolution and line marks up. Do not turn the pump with the engine running.
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19675 |
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Then, there's the matter of the umbrella seals on the drive shaft...……...Better not have rolled the first one or you will eventually have diesel fuel in the engine oil.
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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Mr. Allis,
So lineup like 20 degrees before top dead center you think? Im getting really good at the umbrella seals. Lol Thanks greg |
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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Mr. Allis,
I would think after that i should be able to tweek by rotating the pump? Greg |
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19675 |
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Remove the small window on the side of the injection pump. Looking in the window you will see a horizontal mark in the rear half of the window. Rotate the engine by hand until you see a second horizontal mark appear in the front half of the window. Align them to each other. Now, what does the crankshaft pulley say ?????? I don't have my Service Book with me, but I think it should be 16 to 18 degrees BTDC with the two marks aligned to each other. I only know of one guy who ever got that splined driveshaft together incorrectly, and he used the pumps mounting nuts to draw the pump onto the drive shaft. It broke off the alignment tang inside the shaft.
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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Dr Allis,
You have no idea how much help you have been! I put the pump drive shaft in while it was on the work bench, that way the umbrella seals were perfect. I had already removed the gear of the shaft. Then i put the pump back on and stuck the shaft threw the engine wall. From there i put the gear back on and torqued the nut on the gear to 40 lbs per pump company. Worked out very well. Tomorrow i will get the valve cover back on and sealed, and fire it up. Thank you so much sir! Greg |
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injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4798 |
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pump numbers would help so I can tell you what timing spec is. I'd have thought the shop who rebuilt it for you would have offered up some technical support! 10JT is 24*, 24JT is 18*. Many of these were updated to 8* advance from 5* so they could be put on at 18* for better starting.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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Dr Allis,
The pump number is DCGFC 627-10JT 2400. We put the engine at 20 degrees BTDC, but i still have the adjustment in the pump slotted holes. I plan on finishing tonight and firing it up. Thanks Greg |
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19675 |
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I never looked in my books, but a 10JT is 24 degrees according to Ed's information.
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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Dr. Allis,
Well my good buddy and I fired it up at 20 degrees BTDC and it was not running right. Lots of smoke, no idel, and would not staying running. We shut it off and tipped the pump both ways and it didnt seem to help. Acts like maybe too much fuel? Even had a little fire out the exhaust when i tried to rev it. You think 24 BTDC though? I hate to keep bothering you, but you are a rare find. This information is hard to come by. Thanks, Greg |
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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After the pros rebuilt the pump, would it still be under the same stats. They did retag it.
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Lonn
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781 |
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The rebuilder that rebuilt YOUR PUMP should be able to help you best because they should know exactly what you have. Unless you don't trust them.
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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink I am a Russian Bot |
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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They told me they do not have that information pertaining to the engine timing. I was a little suprised.
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injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4798 |
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that is sad. The Allis timing specs I have here and use almost daily, is a service bulletin circulated throughout the fuel injection industry. They simply didn't want to take the time to find that info. In my opinion, that is still part of our job as pump rebuild shops.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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It is sad. The exact BTDC is so hard to find. Im thinking they have it at their finger tips. Because its smoking so much, im guessing it to far and i need to come back to like 14 or 12 btdc instead of 20.
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steve fischer
Orange Level Joined: 11 Jul 2011 Location: sleepy eye mn Points: 933 |
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my list says 24 with a 6 degree advance ,is your balancer slipped on rubber ,most are marked inner and outer with a line on front face
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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24 degree before top dead center then plus 6? So 30 Degrees BTDC? The only timing marks i found are on the fly wheel. It has a mark for TDC. Thats a v mark and lines after seem to be in 1 degree incerments.
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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Im not sure what the balancer is?
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Lonn
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781 |
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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink I am a Russian Bot |
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injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4798 |
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No, he meant 24* timing to the engine when the pump has a 6* advance in it. What that means is it starts out at 24*, and once up to full speed the pump advance of 6* (is actually doubled for crankshaft degrees, engine sees 12*) so the engine ends up at 36* (24+12)total at full speed. Remember, the pump runs half engine speed. Confused yet? lol! Simply put, time it to 24*.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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24 degrees BTDC on the crank pullly. That i can do. The pump 1/2 speed i did not know. Im very new to this. Lol. So as long as i lineup the crank pulley at 24 degrees, put the pump on with pump lines in line, that should be right?
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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I think i under stand about the hub and rubber sleeve. I will check that to make sure ints still lined up. Thank you
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19675 |
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Almost. Line up the crank pulley to the pointer on the timing cover at 24 degrees BEFORE-TDC, not after TDC. You also must be on #1 cylinder compression stroke, not #6. This means both rocker arms on #1 cylinder will be loose. If the pump is still on the engine, getting the pump window marks CLOSE to each other should mean you are on #1 compression stroke. Then, make the crank pulley read 24 degrees BEFORE TDC, and this should be done while rotating the engine in its normal direction. This means have the engine on 30 degrees BTDC and move it to 24 degrees BTDC to take all the slack out of the timing gears.
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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I included a pic of the pointer im using to line up with. Its a raised steel mark and the slashes are on the pulley. There is the TDC v mark on the pully, the small lines going only in one dirrection arount the pully. |
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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I did also pull the valve cover and made sure both the exhaust and fuel intake were both closed on the 1 # cylinder. That lined up with TDC on the pully.
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Gregc72deer
Bronze Level Joined: 09 Dec 2018 Location: Lawton, MI Points: 32 |
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TDC is pictured all the way to the right in the photograph.
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