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thendrix 
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 Topic: Electric fan motors
Posted: 25 Feb 2024 at 11:48am |
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We have 36" exhaust fans in the chicken houses that run on 5 minutes timers for mostly the entirety of a flock. These same size/style fans have been used for decades. Here lately, motors have been having some problems. By lately I mean in the last 10 years or so and not just ours. It seems like sh!tty motors. The problem has been mostly start capacitors that equipment companies don't have a source for. I've been looking for a source for capacitors but haven't had luck yet. I'll keep looking.
Now to the real question, for decades these fans have run on 1/2hp motors. Now these fans are sold with 1hp motors. Our fans were still new enough that we got all of our motors warrantied and got enough 1hp motors to swap all of our 1/2hp. For many years, Dayton farm duty motors were the go to but, as per a quick Google search, they're over $400. That gets expensive real quick. What do you folks know about Leeson and Grizzly brands? I believe Grizzly is the same as the Grizzly brand wood working equipment. They're not cheap but a bit cheaper than Dayton. I'm just looking for a motor that will run longer than 1 to 2 years. Used to they ran 5 to 10 years if not longer
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 25 Feb 2024 at 12:47pm |
I have used a few LEESON motor with success..
I would guess the change from 1/2 HP to 1 HP would extend the life of the motors.. Easier startup..
I also have bought AFTERMARKET start capacitors over the years. I normally do not go back to the "motor manufacturer"... they didnt build the capacitors, they bought them... Capacitor should have a RATING stamped on the side of it.. You need to be in the right VOLTAGE rating .... the CAPACITANCE does not need to be exact, but it helps to be close.. That determines the TIME it takes for the motor to windup to full speed.. You dont want to take too long, but you dont want instant MAX RPM either..
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 25 Feb 2024 at 12:58pm |
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Are your motors 120 or 240 V ? Most 220- 240 v systems use a 250V rated capacitor.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 25 Feb 2024 at 1:03pm |
Finding start caps is easy ,once you KNOW the values... Typically it'll say xxx MFD / yyy VAC where xxx is the value of capacitance and yyy is the voltage. Voltage will generally be 350-450 AC volts,allows for 120 or 240 volt operation.
Capacitance value could be stamped as a 'range', say 80-120 MFD. The value varies according to the motor,but whatever WAS on the motor, THAT is the value you want. You can't swap in a 230 MFD for a 100 MFD !!
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thendrix
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Posted: 25 Feb 2024 at 4:25pm |
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I'll have to get a capacitor out to check values. I knew them once before but couldn't find the right values in anything I could buy then things got busy and I stopped looking. I'll see about getting one out tomorrow and see if I can get values posted
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 25 Feb 2024 at 9:20pm |
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If your running 240 v you might have a 250v capacitor... As Jay said ... if you have one RATED at 370 v, that would be great !!...... Your capacitance might be like 100.... as i was saying, if you cant find that EXACT rating, maybe a 110- 120 (example).... Going UP 10% might not be a big deal... It does not have to be EXACTLY the same as original (if you cant find an original replacement)..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Mnfarmboy
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Posted: 26 Feb 2024 at 9:57am |
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When you have the numbers check ebay or amazon or just put the numbers in your search engine. My heat pump would'nt start, paid the repair man $200.00 for a $ 10.00 dollar capacitor, fixed it myself after the $200.00 dollar one lasted about 3 weeks.
Edited by Mnfarmboy - 26 Feb 2024 at 5:51pm
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Mnfarmboy
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Posted: 26 Feb 2024 at 10:25am |
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put Dayton 1/2 or 1 horse capacitor in your search engine it should bring up what you need.
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DMiller
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Posted: 26 Feb 2024 at 11:45am |
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Going to find this unimaginable, DC Motors are now replacing AC motors in certain HVAC or Ventilation equipment. Easier to regulate Speed as needs no massive banks of mechanism to do so, Easier to control Direction(Polarity). The Nuke has begun to change out the 480v 3ph building ventilation fans with Controlled Frequency and DC Systems to find which will operate better.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 26 Feb 2024 at 12:47pm |
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Our Maytag Washing machine has a DC motor.. Speed and reverse direction/ agitation are controlled by circuit board.. No gear box anymore..
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thendrix
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Posted: 26 Feb 2024 at 2:21pm |
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I started to hear about variable speed fans a few years back. Now we're starting to hear about variable speed DC motors on feed lines and fans
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"Farming is a business that makes a Las Vegas craps table look like a regular paycheck" Ronald Reagan
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 27 Feb 2024 at 6:19am |
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I belong to a group that builds blacksmiths power hammers.
The Leeson motors seem to hold up best as far as I’ve read.
Have you looked at surplus center for capacitors and motors?
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 27 Feb 2024 at 7:04am |
Welcome to the World of CONS. yes, old skool motors ran for decades. the 35 year old ,1/2HP furnace fan motor I pulled from my 96% eff furnace still runs (only downgraded to a 93% eff fce for insurance ). While the 'new tech' DC motors have better control,they are cheaper to build,cost more and need a 'computer' to run them.
I had a look, I can buy 1/2HP TEFC motor for $240, or 1HP for $300,both made in China,of course. neighbour had a well pump 'go'( indoor.cistern use), it looked brand new...krapped out, no parts available( starter ),sigh....
Ask about replacement parts ! friend has $2000 exercise bike,asked me to fix it, needs a $5 part.If under warranty,it's replaced. it's NOT ,so now LANDFILL !!
BTW caps don't like the heat ! They 'dry up' internally and fail. If you can source 'industrial duty' caps buy them. They have a better 'temperature range' unlike the 'residential' ones.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 27 Feb 2024 at 7:08am |
Leeson are industrial grade. Grizzly are asian imports, and while better than something coming out of Harbor Freight, they're certainly not in the realm of Baldor, Dayton, or Century.
If you went from a 10 year lifespan to a 2 year, there's something else seriously wrong. Start and run capacitors DO fail, but usually they fail because they've been either overloaded, overheated, or under-rated. Don't go below 330v for a 240v circuit, lest it WILL have a much shorter service life.
Get a reflective tachometer, and put a piece of tape or dab of white paint on the motor sheave and take a measurement of the running RPM, and compare that to the NAMEPLATE RPM on the motor. While a 60-cycle motor's synchronous speed (unloaded) will be either 3600, 1800, or (in the case of a 6 pole motor) 1200rpm, the LOADED speed will be shown as something like 3450 or 1725rpm. These are the FULLY LOADED speeds, and the DIFFERENCE between loaded speed and synchronous speed is called "SLIP". If the loaded motor's RPM falls BELOW that point, you'll have excessive motor heating going on.
Usually, in big ventilators, the bearings in the blower get draggy, and the drum or flights (blades) accumulate a fine layer of dust, and when this happens, the motor load comes up considerably. There's two things I'd check before dismissing the motor as a problem:
First is a visit from a pressure washer- that cuts off the dust layer and cleans up the airflow pathway.
Second, is a check of the bearings, and a full loading of fresh and proper grease.
These two things are the most likely problems that would cause a whole bunch of fans to start exhibiting problems after years of service... and the latter (grease) would be a most likely cause of a simultanious loss of performance... specifically, the TYPE of grease used. What often happens, is a guy comes through with good intentions, and gives all the bearings a couple pumps of grease... and the bearings run great.
One year, a guy comes through, gives 'em all grease, and again, they run great.
Six months later, the motors start to run warm... and by the end of the second year, they're all having difficulty.
The element that started it wasn't that they got greased on regular basis, but that the guy coming through had a DIFFERENT KIND of grease in his gun.
The grease that you normally have in your grease gun of 1970 would've been a silicon or sodium-based wheel bearing grease... because that would've been the most commonly used grease in farm machinery... but nowdays, the most common is an NGLI-2 Lithium based grease.
If you take a bearing that's been running on one base of grease for 40 years, and you shoot in a DIFFERENT type, a chemical reaction occurs... Saponification... where the two greases' base metals electrolytically react, and become basically stone.
After that, you can try to add as much grease as you want... the bearings will NOT spin freely... they'll drag.
I don't think your motor problem is a motor problem, I think it's a motor load problem- the loading has changed... and you'll probably find that the running RPM is wrong, thus, your motors are overheating.
I would NOT remove all the ventilation motors and replace them with DC drives or AC VFDs... that's a significant increase in technology that, in the event of serious electrical excursion (like a utility line problem, or a lightning strike) could take out ALL your ventilators at once. The simplicity of a synchronous AC induction motor makes it much more robust against such things. A simultanious loss of all ventilators on a hot day could result in the loss of your whole flock.
Edited by DaveKamp - 27 Feb 2024 at 7:12am
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JW in MO
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Posted: 27 Feb 2024 at 6:21pm |
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Get an amp clamp and check the amp draw of your fan while running, make sure it’s within the 20% of the “full load,” rating. Ran into a situation where I replaced a 3/4 Ho motor, same rating but different brand. Didn’t last very long, overheated and quit. Replaced it again with the same results, this time I had all three motors analyzed at a shop, turns out, the original motor was actually a 1/2 hp marked as a 3/4 due to the 5/8” shaft. After that, every fan motor I replaced was checked for amp draw after installation. I put a 1/2hp motor on with a bushing on the shaft and never lost another motor.
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thendrix
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 6:11am |
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Thanks again everybody. I'll see if I can get time to get a capacitor out today.
Dave, that's quite a detailed explanation. It's not my farm that motors have gone from 10 years to 2 just farms in general. At my in-laws farm, before it shut down, we were replacing motors in 2017 that were put into service in 1995. I certainly agree with you on dust. We wash fans after every flock just for this reason and each bearing gets a shot or two of grease after washing. My biggest issue with losing start capacitors is with the fans running on 5 minute timers and it taking 10 seconds to start rather than 2, we lose 8 seconds of ventilation every cycle which is 96 seconds per hour or approximately 38.5 minutes per day. Losing ventilation time can cause excessive ammonia and the wet floors like they show in the documentaries that make us look less than human.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 7:09am |
Yeah, the ammonia is a very quick killer... we had a strange weather day about 8 years back, and lost ventilation in our brooder bin, and it took out two dozen chicks.
The longer start time can be a couple of things, but foremost, the starting capacitor and it's centrifugal switch (they CAN get sticky and worn).
Another thing you CAN do, at the cost of a little full-flow volume, is reduce the drive ratio (increase the reduction) so that startup and full running load is slightly lower, hence quicker... and your peak (startup) and running power consumption will be reduced. Since you're running it on a timed cycle, the full-flow performance is not critical in maintaining the habitat.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 7:12am |
curious about the '5 minute ' timers... Are you saying the fans 'cycle' is on for 5 minutes, then off for 5 minutes, 24 /7 ? Trying to figure out how many starts and often you have ? The start switch wasn't made for a zillion cycles.Well water pump switches fail this way. Just curious if another solution might be more reliable ?
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 7:19am |
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You might want to leave a few fans on CONSTANT so you get some ventilation and keep to ammonia concentration down ?
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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thendrix
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 8:18am |
 jaybmiller wrote:
curious about the '5 minute ' timers... Are you saying the fans 'cycle' is on for 5 minutes, then off for 5 minutes, 24 /7 ? Trying to figure out how many starts and often you have ? The start switch wasn't made for a zillion cycles.Well water pump switches fail this way. Just curious if another solution might be more reliable ?
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Yes and no. One cycle is 5 minutes. We set the fan run time according to the amount of ammonia in the air. For example, the first 2 days we run 3 exhaust fans 30 to 35 seconds every 5 minutes. By the end of the flock it'll be 4 fans and 2 1/2 to 3 minutes on
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 12:09pm |
My gut is telling me the the fans have too much CFM. Running a motor or 30 seconds is really hard on them,especially if driving a fan through a belt. They probably don't get up to speed before beiing shut down.
In your case having DC motors whose speed is controlled by ammonia concentration makes sense and is an easy system to design and configure. I'd have each fan on it's own PLC and sensor NOT an 'all-in-one' design. That way when a sensor fails,the others can take up the slack.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 12:21pm |
I would not be starting a fan every 5 minutes and run for 30 seconds...Way too many startups. I would run ONE fan constant and keep the cycling down. If your running for 30 seconds you pulling way too much air.. Use 1/3 as many fans, or reduce the speed so they run for a few minutes... Would be nice to run ONE fan constant, and have a couple more kick in every 20 minutes and run for 5 minutes... etc.
I dont know how big your fans are.. But you might consider a SMALLER fan, or change belt drive on 1-2 fans toward the middle of the building so they pull fresh air from each end.. and run constant...
Edited by steve(ill) - 28 Feb 2024 at 12:24pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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thendrix
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 1:07pm |
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Guys I'm impressed with the suggestions but most of these things aren't possible with our contract. We're not allowed to run variable speed fans and running a constant fan would make the chickens "huddle" and not eat which causes more problems. We run a minimum of 3 fans for 30 seconds per our contract. The USDA says less than that and we're in violation of our animal welfare agreement. Basically, our hands are tied as far as what we can use. I'm just looking for a source to replace start capacitors rather than entire motors.
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thendrix
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 1:10pm |
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Got the capacitors out this morning. Unless I'm mistaken, the start capacitor is the one with a resistor soldered to the lugs?
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 3:26pm |
Start cap will have one wire going to the centrifugal start switch. There 'should' be a wiring diagram inside the cover where the power wires go into the motor. All else fails ,google the make/model of the motor or post that info here...
as for source of caps... post the 'numbers' here, or picture... DIGIKEY is the largest electronic supplier in USA/CDA.... most stuff overnight for me......
sad you 'hands are tied'...as it'd be an easy swap over to more efficient/better air for the birds...... sigh....
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 4:42pm |
Tyler.. it sounds like you need MORE GOVT rules and regulations..... Have they looked into BATTERY and SOLAR POWER ???  
I feel for you man.....
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 4:44pm |
not 100% guarantee.... butt...
How do you tell if a capacitor is a run or start capacitor? 1) Run capacitors are rated in a range of 3–70 microfarad (uF). Run capacitors are also rated by voltage classification. The voltage classifications are 370V and 440V. Capacitors with ratings above 70 microfarad (uF) are starting capacitors Start capacitors usually have ratings above 70 µF, with four major voltage classifications: 125 V, 165 V, 250 V, and 330 V.
Edited by steve(ill) - 28 Feb 2024 at 4:47pm
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thendrix
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 5:45pm |
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Steve, I think I may have found a replacement that didn't show up the last time we looked. I'll have to measure the OD and be length to make sure it'll fit. And yeah we're looking into solar at the moment
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 28 Feb 2024 at 9:57pm |
Tyler, the resistor across the terminals is called a 'bleeder resistor'. it's function is to slowly discharge any energy that remains IN the capacitor, so that it won't be storing a whallop that'd blow your fingertips off if you touched it.
Since it's a chemical device, one can charge a capacitor fully, then discharge it fully, then open up it's leads, and it will actually start to rebuild a partial charge, because the discharge process may dump a whole lotta current, it cannot dump it ALL, because it's a chemical device... some of that chemistry takes time to fully equalize. The bleeder is there to drain off any charge that'd build up as a result of finishing equalization.
Most motor START capacitors are paper electrolytic type. Most motor RUN capacitors are oil-filled types. The former have considerable capacity, but cannot tolerate extended cycle times before overheating and erupting. The latter are much, much more electrically robust under continuous cycling duty, albeit at a lower capacity than the electrolytic start type.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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thendrix
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Posted: 29 Feb 2024 at 8:27am |
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Capacitor specs:
Run capacitor C107558440048
15.0uF 370VAC/B 50/60Hz
I searched for this number and it didn't come up. Got a close number but the last 4 digits were wrong
Start capacitor C103237310113
189-227uF 125VAC 60Hz
Found several matches with this number in different sizes. I'll measure mine and see which one fits. I think I've got the start/run thing right. Seems kinda strange to me that the run capacitor has a higher voltage rating than the start capacity though
Edited by thendrix - 29 Feb 2024 at 8:28am
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