427435?

The pic of the 7000 series with an 8000 cab is from
Norm Swindfords book.

injpumpEd wrote: When I read about Jim talking about the prototype engine, I figured it would have been something out of the Hercules plant, since White had bought that, and had a huge expansion, only to sell it off to MF/Perkins. But once I saw pictures, it looks like a Waukesha. It would be cool to see the number on the injection pump tag. It looks like a run of the mill Roosa DB. I too also thought the Whites resembled the 30 series Deere. If all you could see was the shadow, you'd never know which was which lol!

Did you notice the location of the pump Ed? I don't know if it was on a production engine before but I remember when the Agcos and New Hollands had them on Cummins engines a few years ago it was the latest and greatest. At least until they came out with the common rail.

Allis 8050 wrote: [QUOTE=peterson]7000 series that could have been! [/QU  OTE] what book is that pic from

The picture is from Norm Swinford's "A guide to Allis-Chalmers farm tractors". Great read, a fair amount of prototype pictures. The 7060 pictured is my favorite tractor prototype picture. That thing is sharp!!!

Link to Norm Swinford book

This is a great read, thanks 427, I know I've read your posts before on some of the same stuff, glad to read them again. And hats off for the design of the 8000 cabs! Much better than the 7000's and light years ahead of everyone else at the time!

Ha! That pic of the 7000 with 8000 cab came from me. the carpet in the pic gave it away! Lol..I love norm Swinfords book!

Anybody with a love for AC should have a copy.

Thanks
Brett

Wow! That cab makes the 7060 quite a looker!

I can't help but wonder how hard would it be to mount an 8000 series cab onto a 7000 series. It does look good. Would it take a factory full of engineers and mechanics?

Spud wrote: How did the study go on mounting the Deutz engine in an 8000 series tractor? That would have been an interesting tractor and would have done the company a lot better then what they did.

It didn't go very far.  I met with one of their engineers over in the Allis corporate building and went over general things like bell housing mounting patterns, stress on the engine block from loads being transferred through the frame to the engine etc.

Once Deutz decided to close the tractor plant, why mess around with putting their engine in the AC tractor for a year. 

Yes, the Krauts handled things very badly.  A Deutz engine in an orange West Allis designed tractor would have been much, much easier to sell and get people used to their air-cooled engines.  By the way, their engines were not that great in many ways.  Despite claims to good fuel efficiency, their bare engine fuel consumption was nothing special.  Their tractors got good fuel efficiency at Nebraska testing, but those tractors had no power shift capabilities and weak hydraulic systems---------both of which decrease fuel economy as measured at Nebraska.

Related story:  Minneapolis-Moline had two hydraulic systems in the 60's and 70's.  One was a simple, relatively low volume gear pump used on the wheatland tractors that had a low hp draw.  The row crop tractors had a much higher capacity system (closed center) that had a higher hp draw when not in use.  Guess which one we took to Nebraska for testing?? 

DonDittmar wrote: Assuming you are not using the hydraulics on the tractor with the closed center system, why would that tractor have a high horsepower draw? The whole idea behind closed center was when there is no call for hydraulic power, the pump goes into no-stroke mode and consumes very little horsepower????

That's what sales claimed, anyway.  Still a hydraulic system with both a high flow and high pressure capability, consumes some hp at standby.  A gear or gerotor pump with a relatively low flow rate and minimal lines and remote valves requires less parasitic hp.  Anyway, that was the case in the 60's with the MM pumps.  Their closed center piston pump wasn't as advanced as AC's------------it stopped pumping, but maintained the full system pressure.




 

Michael V (NM) wrote: this is what I done to my 8010, their not perfect by a long ways, but their a lot more easy on the arm and shoulder when moving a lot of bales

Can't see the picture anymore, Michael V (NM)

Mark this is a great read. I would be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on the deutz 912 serries.   That is what Same used in the 105 we had and that 6 cylinder diesel was the most efficient of the tractors we had one was an old case 100hp form the 70s I don't remember the model and the other was an ih 986.   Of the 3 the deutz was alot more efficient just sitting on our pto generator.   But that Same was the biggest pos I have ever seen they couldn't even make a gear shift lever that wouldn't break off in your hand when you shifted the tractor.   Honest to god we had to replace them every 4 years or so.
I have always liked air cooled diesel engines simply because you don't have a coolant system to fail or freeze. I have toyed with the idea of putting one in my farmall h or in a d17. I might do the farmall h for real. That seems like a cool project and I really don't want another gas tractor to feed.
What is your take on air cooled diesel motors? I have one of those cheap little Chinese 10 hp diesel engines in a little case ingersoll 448 that I have used to rake hay with all summer that is the coolest little tractor it burns almost no fuel and does a great job with my rake.
Anyway i really enjoyed reading the allis chalmers history and hearing about what they looked into doing.

Mark:

Mark, thanks for sharing your AC work experiences. Yes, this topic is a great read. Interesting times with Deutz in 1984. Also, I thought AC built their own cabs - not. What other tractor components were also hired out?

Dan73 wrote: Mark this is a great read. I would be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on the deutz 912 serries.   That is what Same used in the 105 we had and that 6 cylinder diesel was the most efficient of the tractors we had one was an old case 100hp form the 70s I don't remember the model and the other was an ih 986.   Of the 3 the deutz was alot more efficient just sitting on our pto generator.   But that Same was the biggest pos I have ever seen they couldn't even make a gear shift lever that wouldn't break off in your hand when you shifted the tractor.   Honest to god we had to replace them every 4 years or so. I have always liked air cooled diesel engines simply because you don't have a coolant system to fail or freeze. I have toyed with the idea of putting one in my farmall h or in a d17. I might do the farmall h for real. That seems like a cool project and I really don't want another gas tractor to feed. What is your take on air cooled diesel motors? I have one of those cheap little Chinese 10 hp diesel engines in a little case ingersoll 448 that I have used to rake hay with all summer that is the coolest little tractor it burns almost no fuel and does a great job with my rake. Anyway i really enjoyed reading the allis chalmers history and hearing about what they looked into doing.

I've never worked with any Deutz engine-----------just reviewed the BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) curves that they published.  Nothing spectacular in them.  Most people don't realize that Deutz depended heavily on their oil cooling system to keep their engines cool.

The Chinese have gotten pretty good at building small air cooled engines-----------there are lots used in Asia.  As a side note, the small Lombardini diesel engine used in the 1984 and 1985 Allis and Simplicity garden tractors is a fine air cooled engine.  Built like a jewel and sips fuel also.

Lombardini diesel engine used in the 1984 and 1985 Allis and Simplicity garden tractors is a fine air cooled engine. Built like a jewel and sips fuel also.
Now that is sort of funny I have a lombardini in my pasquali from that vintage that I need to rebuild.   It half the reason I like the air cooled diesel motors.   I wanted to put one of them on my farmall h but the rpm range is totally wrong they spin up about 3200rpm. If memory serves me right. I have been thinking about the 4 cylinder onan diesel used on the military generators.   
I know what you mean about the deutz depending on the oil it is even listed as oil cooled in alot of places.
As I said the only thing I know about them is the one we had was better then the ih 986 from the same time frame. Always figured that was because the deutz had a fuel return line at the injectors and the ih didn't.
I am not sure the onan which is a lister design is very efficient maybe if I go that route I should try and track down a lombardini.   They are just more rare and expensive.